David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. And that's what this podcast is all about. Now, today's guest is my good friend, Neil l trage, a world renowned orthopedic surgeon who works with the top athletes in the world athletes like Tom Brady and Brooks Katka. Now, I'm gonna say something here that you might think makes me a little crazy. It's a little provocative, but but stick with me. As a leader, you shouldn't Chase passion. Now, I know what you're thinking out there, David, you've lost your mind. Everybody should be passionate. But I mean it. If what drives you is simply passion, you are setting yourself up for burnout, which is the absolute worst place you should be as a leader. And so while I don't want you to chase passion, I do have another idea for you. I want you to chase purpose. Instead, the great leaders I know understand why they do what they do. And I'll tell you, purpose will sustain you a lot more than passion. You know, we've all fallen in love with something one day and had that go away the next, but purpose sustains what you do. In my interview with Neil, he shares several stories and how this plays out in his life, his career and in the operating room. And I can't think of a better leader for you to learn from on this critically important insight. So here we go. We cover so much in this episode, and I can't wait for you to listen in. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. It's a conversation with Dr. Neil Ella tries.

Hello, I want to start out by just taking a moment to thank you for my own physical well being. You know, a couple of years ago, I had Achilles surgery, I now have a plate and four screws in the back of my heel. And I understand that you have the patent on the technology that made that operation successful. I can now walk 36 holes and golf with no pain. How about that, thank you very much awesome.

Neal ElAttrache 2:33 

And it's great. By the way, we never agreed to be my partner in any of these golf tournaments. With a few strokes you're getting, I think we could do really well.

David Novak 2:43 

I'd love to do that someday, you absolutely light up like a candle when I talked about my success. With my operation, you seem to get so much joy from what you do.

Neal ElAttrache 2:55 

I'm so fortunate to have found maybe the one thing in the world that I really feel like I'm any good at you know, and it gives me a ton of joy to be able to do it and hear the stories like yours. You know, you mentioned some of the instruments that I had developed. And I get a real kick out of hearing people that have benefited from it in ways that I had never really conceived of whenever I was going through the development of that, you know, when I was developing any of the things that I've done any of my patents or intellectual property, it was just to solve problems that I was facing challenges I was facing in my own practice or in the operating room. And I don't know that I was prescient enough or smart enough to realize all the uses that these things could be could be put into practice for and so you know, I'm glad to hear stories like yours every now and then to say that you've benefited from it.

David Novak 3:56 

Yeah, absolutely. How many patents Do you have? Nealon. And how do you go about innovating? Well,

Neal ElAttrache 4:02 

I have I have six that are the main ones and they're iterations on, on on a theme with regard to using implants in bone that that fix suture where you where you need to, to fix it to repair tissue. And also to do it in a way that doesn't require a lot of extra suture not tying things like that. So they're variations on on the same theme with regard to minimizing exposure, minimizing surgical morbidity, and getting really strong tissue repair.

David Novak 4:37 

You know, any of the last time we talked you mentioned to me that you were going to have seven Tommy John surgeries scheduled in the upcoming week. Something that's never been done before. For listeners out there. What's Tommy John surgery and can you tell us how that week went?

Neal ElAttrache 4:58 

Tommy John surgery is the operation to fix the ligament on the on the inside of the elbow that breaks down in, in pitchers and and also happens in in other endeavors like Javelin throwers in track and field. And we found out over the years that there's a form of handball played in Europe where they were, they tear this ligament too. But it really it was the stabilizing ligament that that is necessary when a person is accelerating their arm and into throwing type position. And my senior partner who, who is no longer with us, maybe looking down from from the heavens on everything that I'm doing anyway, that he was the one that developed this operation and true to form with his own humility. He named it after the patient that he did on rather than getting it named after himself. So Frank Jobe is the is the great surgeon that developed the operation. And the first person he did it on was a pitcher named Tommy, John. And Tommy, John went on to win more games after the operation than he did before the operation, he was a great Dodger player, and then with the Yankees. And so that procedure is one of the most successful procedures that we do in sports medicine, with regard to getting players that have been injured back to play, if you look at all the things we do that that procedure is, probably has the best track record.

David Novak 6:32 

So you did seven of these in one week, you know, how's everybody doing after that surgery?

Neal ElAttrache 6:38 

Well, we're, you know, we track our patients pretty carefully. And and so far, it those were recent, within the past several months, and they're all doing fine at this point. You know, it's when they get back to, back to the thing that that got them here in the first place, you know, when they get back in the war out there on the mound that that's, you know, when we really pay attention to see, you know, how they're doing, how they're performing. But so far, so good. You know,

David Novak 7:03 

I was thinking about that seven surgeries, you know, with people who have, they're relying on their career that the, you know, relying on you to get them back, back up on the mound, you've got to feel all kinds of pressure on that, you know, you have a process that you use for getting yourself up for each surgery.

Neal ElAttrache 7:24 

You know, I I stay in my lane I do, I do what I really feel that, that I'm proficient at and that I'm that, that I'm good at, there's going to be some things that I see occasionally that are not that common, and, and no one has a lot of surgical experience with with some things because they're rather rare. But I'm not beyond going and practicing and technique or taking some time to go down to the lab and working on some things if this is something that's unusual or rare that. So I would say that the answer to your question is I I am very, very prepared. Every time I go into the operating room, I I've envisioned exactly what the injury is I have it's it's tattooed in my brain, when I'm going to see I already anticipate all of the eventualities, you know, you can't predict everything that's going to happen in an operating room, but what you can do is you can narrow it down to the things that could happen and, and you don't want to be doing a lot of deliberating in the or in surgery, that that's not a good place for the first surgeon to be. That's like a commander in a battle, you know, being indecisive and that nothing good happens with that. So you have to anticipate the things that that can happen, the things you can see. And immediately that drives you to a solution that you've already worked out in your head. So I'm very prepared. I, I imagined everything that I could see, I already imagined the anatomy in my brain before I make an incision in the skin. So that's, that's why I feel very, very comfortable when I'm in there.

David Novak 9:08 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it makes so much sense. Now, I'd like to just kind of go back to the beginning. You know, tell us a story about your upbringing that impacted the kind of leader that you've become.

Neal ElAttrache 9:20 

I was raised in a in a caregivers home, you know, my my, my father was, was a surgeon and his living was in the rural areas of, of Western Pennsylvania, in and that's how I grew up. I grew up in a in a coal mining town of hardworking people. And I just got a chance to, to sort of observe and I maybe I didn't realize what the impact it was having on me, but I saw what it meant to take care of others. My mother started the Meals on Wheels program there in that little town and that was very important because there was a people as they were aging, they really they couldn't get around. And it was a long way to go to the grocery store and things like that. So So I saw the way that you you gain a lot personally by living a life of of that kind of service. And so I was drawn to that. I'm not a jack of all trades, you know, I was I was an okay high school athlete, I nowhere near as good as I thought I was my mother figured that out quickly and encouraged me to go to a school that I wouldn't have any delusions that I was good enough to play college football or anything and and I went on to Notre Dame and, and then from there went to medical school at the University of Pittsburgh, because I wanted to be a surgeon and all the all the people that wanted to be surgeons at that time seem to be gravitating there. And when you're young in your 20s, and you found the thing that you feel like you were meant to do, and and the rewards were amazing, because you you just you felt like you were on top of the world, like you were an astronaut that there was walking on the moon, you, you are sort of blind to some of the realities of life with regard to your profession. And I was drawn to orthopedic surgery where you had otherwise generally healthy people came in broken, you fix them, and they got back to, to doing what they what they love to do. And I became an orthopedic surgeon, orthopedic surgery has given me a real purpose and reward in life that I don't know, that I could have ever gotten with anything else.

David Novak 11:35 

You've mentioned, the joy you get from your profession, and you just mentioned the word, purpose, you know, what do you think is driven you most to your path for excellence, that passion that you ever the purpose that you have?

Neal ElAttrache 11:49 

purpose for sure, you know, I think that you know, we I love it when I see people come in and they have a ton of, you know, passion for, for, you know what they're doing some of these young guys that are coming in young guys and ladies now that that are coming in and really drawn to orthopedics and they are very passionate but that they have to realize, like I realized you after the fact that that passion is it's it's about you, it's about your your response to things and the passion can be both good and bad passion is it's your it's shaded by your maybe your needs at the time, what kind of gratification you're getting. But your purpose is really about what you were meant to do. As far as achieving a goal in life and passion will wax and wane. You'll fall in love and out of love with things and but your purpose if you really consider what was I really meant to do to be able to do the best for me and the world around me that's sustainable, that if you if you really see it clearly, and come to grips with with that. And if you're lucky enough to really look at it that way that will last a lifetime. And that will drive you through the tough moments. And so I'm driven by purpose, passion, it's, it's it's great. It's a great exhilarating feeling, now and then. But the big things in my life are driven by purpose.

David Novak 13:29 

You know, Doctor, you know, when you were coming up in the orthopedic world, did you have a pivotal moment that really changed the trajectory of your career,

Neal ElAttrache 13:40 

those moments happened to me all the time, and still do. I think that probably the biggest false thing that I could ever say is that I'm somehow self made, man. And I think that those pivotal moments happened every single time some somebody came into my life that for whatever reason, took an interest in me or what I was doing it and I became better for every one of those encounters. And so I could remember so clearly, all those times when somebody came along and pushed me forward, did whatever they needed to do, or or, or added whatever they need big or small to make me better for having had that that happened to me. So I've always remembered that and I try to pay that back. You know, I I try to anytime that I come into contact with somebody that might be you know, on the path to their life's work, you know, I I try to add something to it if I can, so it's happened to me a lot of times, David, and, you know, some some big some level but it's happened to me numerous times.

David Novak 14:52 

You've talked about heightened sensitivity as a critical asset for a surgeon. Explain.

Neal ElAttrache 14:59 

Well, you Uh, you know, the sensitivity is, it's all encompassing, you know, you have to be, if you're not in the moment, and really aware of the interaction, and observant, sort of as a second nature of people you're taking care of, then you're not really, you're not really getting to 100% of what you need to be doing. So the relationship I have with, with, with the Pilat people I take care of is, I would say that that's probably the most intimate relationship that one human being can have with another.

David Novak 15:39 

I've heard you actually say, surgeons can create a higher level of intimacy for human beings than any other profession, including the clergy.

Neal ElAttrache 15:50 

I agree, and I'm an I am spirit, I consider myself spiritual. And, you know, I was raised in that kind of a household. So there's, I'm not, I'm not running down the clergy, by any means. But, but when I look at the relationship, that that happens between two human beings, when one person is saying, I trust you enough to put my body my health, or that of my loved one in your hands, if that doesn't strike, budding physicians out there, right, between the eyes, as is this divine purpose, then I then then they're missing, they're missing the most beautiful thing that that I experienced, you know, you

David Novak 16:39 

hear and see a lot of doctors, you know, where, you know, they try to keep it emotional distance from their patients. How do you look at the relationship that you have with the patient? So can you get to closer? You know, I know, you operate on a lot of friends, for example.

Neal ElAttrache 16:59 

Yeah, I think that, you know, if, if the closeness clouds your judgment, I think it's a problem. And so there's a lot of things that happen in in, in what I do, on a weekly basis, that if I worried about the media, the press, the agent, the team, you know, all of these other things, because what would be sad, or what would be, you know, it could definitely cloud your cloud, your judgment. And I think the same goes, if you're taking care of somebody that's dear to you. If if you're, if that closeness is going to cloud your judgment on doing what's best doing your job, then then it can be a problem, I find, I don't think that it's an issue at all. If I have, if I had a friend or a relative, that I thought that I could do something as well, or better than, then what else they could get for me to, for me to do that, I'll be quite frank about that. Unless if i Unless if I found myself in this situation where my relationship, my feelings would cloud somehow my judgment, and they will therefore be a detriment to them.

David Novak 18:21 

Yeah, that makes sense. You know, and, you know, I understand you, you are the team physician for the Los Angeles Dodgers and the Los Angeles Rams. What's that, like? And what's the key to success in a role like that?

Neal ElAttrache 18:35 

Very, very simple, very simple ingredient. The patient comes first. So every one of these players is I consider a patient and, and so if that comes first, their well being comes first, everything else takes care of itself. And, you know, we can talk a little bit about the history of sports and how that has aligned incentives as as time has gone on, there's more and more money in in these sports and things but it's made, made things actually a lot easier, not more difficult, because everybody's incentives are aligned. But if you consider the well being of that, of that player, patient and all that really matters at that point is that relationship between me and that player patient everything else flows from there. And aside from that, then it's the things that that make any executive you know, a good executive, its availability, affability and ability, and the three A's you know that, you know, if I wasn't available, or if I wasn't able, or if people hated me, you know, how effective would I be so, so, you know, the the same ingredients that makes any any executive good, but, but by and large, you know, I can I can eliminate all of the conflicts of interest if I just keep the the player patient first.

David Novak 19:54 

Well, from now on, I'm going to refer to you as the AAA leader. Do you work with a Hall of Famer Joe Torre? What did you learn about leadership watching him manage the Dodgers,

Neal ElAttrache 20:06 

he was a very player centric person and what he did you know, if you look at the people that he managed, and there's a few other coaches that come to mind, but Joe is, at the top of the heap, when it comes to this, maybe Pat Riley was another one that could do this, they took some of the biggest sort of impact players biggest egos biggest people in their sport, and put them together in a locker room. And his motto was not check your ego at the door at all, quite frankly, it was the opposite. It was listen, you're special, you're here, because you're special, bring that bring that on on in here, but do it in a way that makes the other guys better. And I learned a lot by watching him manage the, you know, the big egos that he was managing. And I think that, you know, he was so successful as a manager, because he got the best out of each one of these big time players. And did it in a way that he completely allowed them to be them. He allowed Jeter to be Jeter, he allowed, you know, a rod to be him. The only rule he had was bring it on in here, but make the guy next to you better. And I think that that's a great way, if you're taking care of people, the managing people and, you know, working with a with a real with a team of any kind of any kind of job, that's a great way to do it.

David Novak 21:44 

You know, speaking of egos, you know, surgeons are known to have huge egos, you know, because you have to have that confidence to be able to go in and get it done. And, you know, how do you manage and lead the, the ego part of your job,

Neal ElAttrache 22:00 

I love the gratification just like anybody else, but But I in what I do, it can be poison, it can really, it can be poisoned for me, and it can hurt somebody. And so I really try to make it more of a self awareness thing, you know, I know what I'm good at. And I know I'm always trying to get better and hone my skills every day. And so, you know, I don't mind if I do something, because I think I'm good at it, because I think I am. But I'm self aware enough to know that problems can arise, challenges can arise and that you better be prepared to handle it. And if you're not growing, you know, if you're not green and growing, then then you're next to rotten, you know, you're you're ripe and next to hot and so I don't ever want to be on the right side, I want to be green and growing.

David Novak 22:51 

It's good. You know, you've also worked for the youngest coach in the NFL, Sean Sean McVeigh, what did you learn from him that you tried to apply in your world,

Neal ElAttrache 23:00 

Sean makes everything his responsibility. You know, he has what we call agency, you know, he thinks that everything that occurs within those walls, at the LA Rams is at least impacted or can be impacted by by him and his work and what he does. So he takes responsibility. For pretty much everything that happens there. Sometimes it's a very difficult way to live, because you end up, you end up really, you know, putting it on yourself whenever things that are a little bit out of your control, you know, occur. And so that can be a hard way to live. However, I don't think that you can succeed in in a, in a big endeavor like that, if you or even personally in your own personal life, if you consider basically everything as fate or it's somebody else's responsibility or, you know, I didn't succeed because this and this and this happened that were out of my control. Sean is it for his young young years, is really remarkable at basically saying, You know what, this is my job. I'm going to study my tail off, I'm going to be as good at this as I can be. And I'm, it's my responsibility to make this thing successful. And I just I really admire this young guy.

David Novak 24:30 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that makes so much sense. He's clearly moved up the accountability ladder for sure. You know, you know, you recently did knee surgeries with Tom Brady and Brooks Capco. Doing the surgery is one thing. How do you help your patients through the recovery process?

Neal ElAttrache 24:48 

Yeah, I think that I'm a very positive optimistic person. I don't think falsely so I think that you know, I see what's possible and I I sort of exude that and I feed off of other positive personalities, you've, you've hit on two people that I don't think there's anybody I've ever encountered. Maybe the late Kobe Bryant, maybe but, but Tom Brady is a is a very, very special guy, as you know, I think you know him a bit and, and so his positive, can do attitude, it's well founded in reality. But, you know, there's that you feel I feed off of that as a as a physician. And so, and I think that they, my, my patients can tell that from the doorway, when you walk in these, especially these athletes, these are real, sort of alpha animals, you know, they, they can sense a lot of things and, and if you come in, and you're honest, and they, they trust you, and believe what you're saying, and you exude this positivity in a, in a realistic way, I think that that's, that is a big recipe for for success. And beyond that, you know, I just, I did, like I say, I do, I do a little bit of surgery, and, and they do a lot of work, and God does a lot of healing, you know, and so it's it really I, my faith has gotten stronger in a greater being, the longer I've done what I what I do, because when I look at that, it really tells me that there's something something out there that is truly miraculous. When it comes to the human body. You know,

David Novak 26:43 

I know you had a mentor that actually asked you to tell tell him something that you learned each week, you know, something that you picked up, and he asked you, what is it and I love that. And when I read that, I love that, what do you do to stay on top of your game now?

Neal ElAttrache 27:01 

You know, I, I continued to do research i I've I have found for me anyway, that the the most productive research for me is, is addressing issues that that are challenging, or things that I think can be done better. So I've never tended to do research for researchers sake, I've never needed to do research for my own status. I I've always gotten involved in, in investigating things that that I thought that I could do better. And so so that one of the ways I do that is I continue to investigate. The other is that I'm a teacher and we we run the largest sports medicine fellowship training program in the country. We've got the largest alumni network out there, we've got 360 People now over the years that are out there, that are sports medicine, orthopedic surgeons around the country, and many of them are very accomplished academically and now have their own training program. So So staying fresh and teaching, especially these young, talented people that are coming in here now, you know, it makes me stay on my game. You know, you're not

David Novak 28:19 

shy deal about giving other people credit for your development. Did you ever have a mentor help you see a blind spot that that you had in your own development? And and can you tell us about it?

Neal ElAttrache 28:34 

Yeah, I think the first one was probably the one that comes to mind. I'm sure that there were there were many before that, and I didn't even realize that they were polishing me up a little bit. But I Bob Curlin who was who's considered by many to be the the TRUE FATHER OF of teen physicians and and sports medicine. He ran the group Bob Curlin and Frank Jobe is our the Kerlin and job and in the clinic, both passed away now. But when I came to interview out of my residency question he asked me was, so you know, tell me about Tell me a little bit about yourself, you know, what do you feel, you know, is it gives you the purpose to do sports medicine, and he was the one that really without me knowing it, at the time was drawing the line between between purpose and passion for me. And I started to talk about, you know, how great it would be to to do what he's doing and how good it would feel to be able to take care of people that injured injured athletes that were hurt and getting them back to work and and he said, Listen, I'm not asking you about, you know what turns you on. In every day. I'm not asked Think about your passion. In essence, tell me what you feel like your purposes here. And that really made me made me sort of focus on on really the true meaning of what what I was doing where I was going. And when I came to grips with what I was trying to do, what I really made me happy, what I was looking for was a way to take care of people in the, in the best way and the best atmosphere that I could. And for me, it was orthopedics in the active population and trying to help help get them better from from ailments and injuries. So so that was, that's what brought it all into focus for me.

David Novak 30:42 

Now, I understand that, that you're the president of the American orthopaedic society for sports medicine, you have 4000 members, tell us about that role and, and how you've how you've led it.

Neal ElAttrache 30:57 

So I, in 2019, I was the president, it's when you're when you become elected president of that organization, it's a it's a five year stint in the presidential line. So you really, you really get educated and, and they help you to evolve into that role. For two years before your presidency, then I, when I was president, we had our big annual meeting in Boston in 2019, and it was the largest attended meeting at that point for the society. Not because I was president but because the program that we put together and and I had some amazing presidential speakers. So I what I wanted to do was to create a an experience for the people that we're going to take time out of their life out of their practices, and really come and learn learn not only about Sports, medicine, but learn about giving and, and about avenues to be able to give back a lot of people out there looking for ways to to give back to their fellow man, but are looking for the right avenue or just some potential to do it. And so my presidential speakers were Ken Langone and Stan Druckenmiller, two of the greatest givers that I have ever encountered in my life. And I and I count them among my closest friends. I'm very lucky about that my keynote speaker was was Tom Brady. And I had a wonderful young lady who gave one of the most meaningful speeches. And that was Madison Koshien, she she was one of the Fab Five gold medal Olympic winners from the last Olympics, and gymnast. And she talked about, she gave a riveting speech that to enlighten us on our blind spots that we have and out of that group, a major effort within aos, SM the Society for athletes advocacy. So it brought us to the the forefront with regard to being, you know, official advocates for the for the needs of our athletes. And so, to answer your question, I think that I tried to respond to what I thought were the needs of the members, I wanted to provide them with the things that I thought would, they would take away from, from my time as President, and I would leave the society better. And I would leave the members with a bit more knowledge and enlightenment on what we do. And so it was all member centric. And so if I was successful as a president of the Society it was because I did it for them.

David Novak 33:56 

It's funny how that works. You're also on NFL today on CBS to give the status updates on injured players or perspective on injuries. How do you get prepared to go on TV and do enjoy it?

Neal ElAttrache 34:11 

I've done some of that less and less over the past few years. Because I happen to be I guess I'm taking care of a lot of these guys. And so I it's not really proper for me then to go on and comment comment about about them. So I've done that a bit less as as my practice has gone on. What I enjoy is I enjoy explaining the types of injuries to the interested public. I think that you know, it's educational, I think that it's helpful for them to learn a little bit about, you know, the kinds of injuries that that occur in an active population and the kinds of injuries that these remarkable athletes are dealing with. And so that's what I did enjoy about it. I just My, my ability to do that has decreased over time because taking care of a lot of these guys that people are interested in,

David Novak 35:07 

I, you know, I, I also understand that your, your, your wife was an outstanding surgical nurse How is her knowledge of the business impacted you?

Neal ElAttrache 35:18 

You know she is my wife is she can laser right in on what's important. She's not tainted or overcome by Glamour or celebrity or anything. Although she I think she's a beautiful glamorous woman but but that is not not in the way that is superficial or anything she was she was such a great or nurse. I don't think that the you know, those guys that I worked with ever forgave me for taking her off the nursing market, but, but she, she because she worked her tail off she was she can talk about agency, she considered everything that happened in that or her responsibility. And if it wasn't perfect, you know, she was really was was not happy. And so she has helped me over the years, we've been married 28 years, but she's helped me to really focus in and stay focused on what's really important. And not to get caught up in, in a lot of the things that come and go, you know, with with a profession taking care of well known people.

David Novak 36:28 

You know, you've had so much success, Neil. Yeah, but almost every leader as an epic fail that they look back on, what would be yours, and how do you deal with it?

Neal ElAttrache 36:39 

As a surgeon, I don't remember the, the hundreds and 1000s of of great results. I don't remember necessarily, unless if I really think about if somebody mentions a name to me about people that have been great on the field or whatever, after the after my surgery with them. I remember the I remember the few that didn't turn out like that. And so I I'm trying to avoid considering those failures. If, because I because I know that I did the best that I could, you know, so those the my less than great results are the ones that I remember, maybe the one thing that comes to mind that I really do consider to this point, I've failed that was that I haven't really accomplished you know, I had a big goal in mind that you know, I really wanted to create a safety net for young student athletes that are out there that got injured that didn't have the wherewithal to get the kind of care they needed. And I think I've it's a failure to this point because because I just haven't pushed ahead and been a bulldog about getting that done. So those those are the ones I try not to not to judge myself on.

David Novak 38:03 

You know, this conversation has been so fascinating unique for me, it's also been so much fun. Just to hear your thoughts. I want to have some more with you with the lightning round of q&a. All right, let's go okay, what three words best describe you

Neal ElAttrache 38:19 

loyal, diligent and positive.

David Novak 38:27 

If you could be one person for a day besides you who would it be?

Neal ElAttrache 38:33 

I would love I think for a short period of time and then get the hell out of there I would I would love to be the president United States I think that I think that maybe I'm I'd be disillusioned or I'm not aware of how everybody goes in with big ideas what they could do but I think that you know with honesty and and attention to to really what's best for the for the country in the in the people that live here. You know, I would love a crack at it.

David Novak 39:06 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Neal ElAttrache 39:11 

I'm extremely sensitive.

David Novak 39:13 

Do you have any hidden talents?

Neal ElAttrache 39:19 

I I have I have a few talents. But I don't think any of them are hidden at this point.

David Novak 39:28 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Neal ElAttrache 39:32 

inefficiency.

David Novak 39:34 

You What's your favorite operating procedure? The one that you just can't wait to go do

Neal ElAttrache 39:40 

you know i? And I know this is not a lightning round but I vacillate and you know I go through periods where I love rotator cuff surgery. I go through periods where I love ligament surgery in the knee and so I have a few wheel houses. You know, whether it's rotate I just I just told to pay Patient that I'm going to take care of another physician, I'm going to operate on his rotator cuff. I said, you know, right now, this is my favorite thing. And so, you know, I, I'm excited about the few things that I do, and it sort of shifts from week to week. Luckily,

David Novak 40:17 

I want to wrap this up. Neal Neil, by asking you, you know, what, three bits of advice would you give to aspiring leaders?

Neal ElAttrache 40:30 

Know thyself, I think that, you know, you cannot effectively lead other people, unless, if you are keenly aware of your own strengths and weaknesses. And that you, you need to be able to function when you're coming in, in touch with other people to make sure that the way that you're helping to guide others, is not tainted by some unrecognized weaknesses and your strengths, put those to good use when it comes to dealing with with others, so know thyself first. Secondly, except the fact that, that people are human. And, you know, you, you want to be able to have some way to inspire, you create inspiration in people and, and if you're going to be a leader of any sort, I think that you really need to give people something to believe in. And so it, how you conduct yourself, your own life, and how you inspire others, you need to give them something to look to, to want to emulate or to. So, you know, I think that you know, your your own, taking care of your own issues is or is very, very important and, and give them something to really aspire to Don't Don't let your hair down in inappropriate ways in front of the people that you're you're trying to lead and inspire. And, and the last lastly is I'm all about second chances. And you know, if something just doesn't doesn't exactly follow every rule or guideline there's there's a break in it to be to not look at ways to salvage something I you know, I've had some some people who are, are fantastic surgeons and fantastic doctors, and now they are in positions of leadership that along the along the way, there may have been a misstep here or there. And and if if, you know, some things are a little bit too too egregious to be able to overlook, I will admit that but by and large I'm all about second chances and and salvaging the greatness in people and not let not let you know sort of this blind allegiance to a rulebook dominate everything, you know?

David Novak 43:13 

Well, speaking of greatness deal, you obviously are a great leader, you're leading the way in your profession, and you care so much, it's it's absolutely inspiring. And just by listening to this conversation, I want to become a better person, I can tell you that, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show.

Neal ElAttrache 43:32 

Thank you, David, it's been a real privilege to be with you.

David Novak 43:44 

Let me tell you something. When Dr. Neil started talking about the difference between passion and purpose, it really got my mind racing. And it took me back to my days as CEO of yum brands, you know, we had had a lot of years of good success. And we'd really built the business into a global business. And I wanted to really get people excited about what we could become. And in fact, I wanted to have something that got me so excited that I couldn't wait to get out of bed. So I came up with this phrase that we were going to build the defining global company that feeds the world. Now what did I mean by defining it meant that people would best practices for how to recognize people, and that we would have a recognition culture that was renowned, that we would make our brands vibrant everywhere we do business and we would feed the entire world, not just people our food, but also the people who couldn't afford our food. We would tie in with the World Food Program and feed the hungry as well. Now this was something that really excited me it got me out of bed and made me want to go to work and it also inspired our people. So I'm a big believer in purpose because that purpose drove me day in and day out. So I've got to ask you, are you leading with passion or purpose? Remember, passion will fade away, but purpose will keep you engaged as a leader through the ups and downs. Now, here's what I want you to do. And I know you can do it. Take the next 10 minutes and write down why it is that you do what you do. Have you ever thought about why it is that you lead? What's your purpose? Write it down and be thinking about that this week as you make your decisions. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that leaders lead with purpose. Take that into your week. Thanks again for listening to how leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. By giving you something simple that you can apply to your business. You'll continue to develop into an incredible leader as well. I'll see you next week.